Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Apr 16, 2010, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

with special exceptions: Critical Agility, etc, which are tied to existing attributes

While skills like SY, AoHM, and Vampirism are fully effective for any profession?

I don't think so.

If those PvE skills are usable as secondaries, so should PvE skills like Critical Agility. Either rework Critical Agility and stuff like it (TNtF, for example) so any profession can use it with reasonable effectiveness, or make all of those PvE profession skills work only with their primary profession.

agrios · Apr 16, 2010, 03:57 PM // 15:57

I believe that, since in PVE thats a lot more targets with a lot more health, the mesmers in PVE could be adressed in two ways.

1 - Buffing some skills to affect one target at massive spiking damage. Ex.: Energy Burn
2 - Buffing other skills to affect more than one target. Ex.: Empathy.

Plus...I believe mesmers should have more flexible ways to recover mana. Since they cast at a higher rate, they tend to burn mana quickly. Example: at each 4 or 5 points of Fast Casting they could gain 1 point of mana each time they interrupt a target.

Gill Halendt · Apr 16, 2010, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Don't like a game WITHOUT grind?
Quit!

I would have quit no problem. Without "grind", my game experience would have run dry in late 2008, after finishing all the available content in EoTN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

On the negative side:
1. Grind having an effect on the game means that you will have players that are better at this game NOT because they would be more skilled, but rather because of the effects that grind has (better skills, effects of titles, ...).

Better at this game? How's that? You mean, spamming SY! and clearing a mission with little effort makes you "better at the game" than healing/protting your party like a pro-player and clearing the same mission while facing some more challenge?

Choices, again. If you like taking shortcuts and diminish your game, feel free to play your iWin button and steamroll through anything. Reaching a goal doesn't make you "better" than anyone. Some PvE skills are demented by design, and they are anyway, even at lower ranks of their respective titles, because of the way they work. Reducing grind won't solve this problem, it will just level off the challenge and push toward more degenerate gameplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The issue of this is that OTHER players are now able to exclude you for not grinding. You can choose to not grind, but that means that you might not be able to experience the game fully because you do not grind.
This can be remedied by playing with people you know. Nonetheless, it DOES exclude a number of people from the game.

Bolded for emphasys. It's players who exclude each other. Take some responsibilities once in a while. We should by now admit that, while GW sucks big time in this respect, its community does as well and largely contributed at making this game shit by showing this kind of attitudes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

2. The amount of grind actually makes people not want to play. When you choose to grind for a reward, and even by grinding heavily, that reward is still so insanely far away that it doesn't make sense to continue. For instance, most of the people that I know that quit, quit the game BEFORE reaching GWAMM.

Judging by the numbers of GWAMM around, or just taking my story into account, those rewards are hardly that far away.

Their problem. This is not "God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals Wars", getting that title is not mandatory, nor is the sole purpose of playing GW. They chose the path of titles and got tired of it before completion. Take a break, find something else to do in GW. Stop behaving like GW is something needed to live. It's not, it's a game. And like every game, it doesn't last forever, it's limited in scope and sooner or later you'll find yourself repeating stuff just because you don't want it to be over yet. You can't blame ANet for giving something to do in the process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

3. And then we get to the real issue, and one that is relevant to this discussion: when grind represents a huge chunk of the game - the game is "balanced" on grind.

Maybe. There little else it could be balanced on tough, after 2 years of no development.

This large chunk is endgame content for those wanting more than the playable content.

drkn · Apr 16, 2010, 04:42 PM // 16:42

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Funny, but I just don't see Mesmer being unable to do things. I don't even see them unable to do things well. I do see them doing things less effectively than some classes, but less effective does not mean ineffective.

bear in mind that while you h/h, you're only 1/8th team.
bear in mind that you probably used pve skills, which are, well...
bear in mind that a lot of people use gimmick builds that are easy to run but not mesmery. i find mesmer to be the best discord caller so far, but still, it's not 'mesmer power'.

it's not only being less effective, it's also being limited. you either rely on gimmicks, pve skills or your secondary to be effective at a comparable, yet never superior, level to others in your team.

JDRyder · Apr 16, 2010, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Don't get me wrong here - I almost mained my assassin because he's pretty much the closest to an iWin button when playing with h/h as it gets

And you were complaining about the game being too easy? If you want it to be harder take out the PvE skills and play something else, like a mesmer lol....

byteme! · Apr 16, 2010, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Upier it's time to drop this discussion and get some sun light. You're taking things way too seriously and your view of the game is somewhat jaded and not in line with what's really going on. The game is never going to go the way you think it should. Let us leave it at that.

MagmaRed · Apr 16, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Started reading a book today that caught my attention with a neat comparison. The book is "Demons Don't Dream" by Piers Anthony, well worth checking out the series. Anyway, this book is about a computer game based on a magical world called Xanth. People in our world (called Mundania) can play it, and enter the magical world of Xanth through it. One player is just starting out, and gets to a point that seems familiar to GW. I'll quote it, it isn't long.

"Well, I sort of thought you might want to win, and get the prize."
- said by the magical person supposed to help out the unmagical one.

"Well, of course I want to win the prize! But the fun is also in the playing. I want to experience every part of Xanth, and enjoy it to the utmost. It's great already, just seeing it in three-dee and talking with you just as if you're real."
- response from the player, who is not magical.

The part I bolded is what I think a lot of people have missed. Mesmer isn't the only part of this, but it the one relavent to this discussion. I have fun with Mesmer they way it is. I agree some things could use some improvement, but most of the ideas I see discussed are based on people getting the prize. I still want to get the prize, but I'd rather enjoy the time I spend doing it.

byteme! · Apr 16, 2010, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

But the fun is also in the playing.

That's subjective though. Everyone's definition of fun is different. You may have fun with how things are but that doesn't speak for the next guy. Which is why this community has been divided for so long. Everyone has their own agendas.

Skye Marin · Apr 16, 2010, 10:25 PM // 22:25

I agree that the fun is also in the playing.

The issue is that, if your main character is a Mesmer, and you've done pretty much everything but far end-game content, it would be nice if some Mesmer skills were improved so that they could fill a spot currently occupied by another profession by being as effective in that role, or more effective in a different role.

The fun is in playing, but if you can't find a team to play with you because of your profession, then you're not going to be playing, so you're not going to have fun.

Turbo Ginsu · Apr 16, 2010, 10:56 PM // 22:56

What I've felt over the last page or 2 worries me in a way. Question that most immediately springs to mind is this: "Are the changes going to break the way we Mesmer users are doing things now?"

IMHO, there are plenty of us who like some of the current options. I've mentioned it many a time, but again for the kids at home

, I'm from Neverwinter Nights prior to GW, and we see things a little differently, to me, I don't care whose skills I'm using on my Mesmer as it's supposed to be a thief. Don't believe me, go get a set of Elite rogue armor, and a mask of the Mo Zing, then dye it all black. Being a thief class, it's no surprise that several of the best builds are all stolen, and sped up a bit with FC.
I'd just like it to be known that whilst yes, I'd like other more Mesmer-focussed builds, I like my stolen builds very much, and I for one will be severely pissed if you break my toys.

PS: Revert VoR +1 FTW. Thank you.

Bryant Again · Apr 16, 2010, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Their problem. This is not "God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals Wars", getting that title is not mandatory, nor is the sole purpose of playing GW. They chose the path of titles and got tired of it before completion. Take a break, find something else to do in GW. Stop behaving like GW is something needed to live. It's not, it's a game. And like every game, it doesn't last forever, it's limited in scope and sooner or later you'll find yourself repeating stuff just because you don't want it to be over yet. You can't blame ANet for giving something to do in the process.

I'm still curious to what our "reward" for having a decked HoM in GW2 will be. If it's any sort of boost - XP bonus, damage bonus, or anything else - I will be ticked, real ticked.

Otherwise I will find it as "rewarding" as a prestige title in Call of Duty - which is to say, not terribly rewarding at all. If that's the case then I have no issue.

While I would've liked the titles reworked in GW2, the concept isn't a daunting one. As long as benefits aren't mandatory or actually improve your success - something ANet could learn for GW2 - then I'm totally fine with lengthy titles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

If you want it to be harder take out the PvE skills and play something else, like a mesmer lol....

Sure hope you don't mean that you're fine with PvE skills and overall imba D:?

MagmaRed · Apr 16, 2010, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

That's subjective though. Everyone's definition of fun is different. You may have fun with how things are but that doesn't speak for the next guy. Which is why this community has been divided for so long. Everyone has their own agendas.

I don't disagree with that one bit. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I see people who don't care much about playing the game and having fun, but only caring about getting the armor, skills, weapons, etc. (the prize). Look at some of the new posts on these forums. People asking about maxing titles and they have had the game for a week. Yet they already want to get GWAMM, and not waste time 'playing the game'. This same issue has come up in regards to game balance. People don't care about playing the game, they only care about getting their prize. If the game requires you to go from point A to point Z, most people are looking for ways to skip all those letters in between or eliminate those letters. Then they get mad because going from A to B (which is what they were after) is too easy and fast.

I know not all people enjoy the same things. But I don't see many people asking for skill changes looking for PLAY reasons to change those skills, just reward reasons.

Xenomortis · Apr 17, 2010, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

While skills like SY, AoHM, and Vampirism are fully effective for any profession?

I don't think so.

SY is a viable skill for almost any profession. I can think of viable (and fairly effective) builds that utilise SY for all professions except for the Mesmer.
3 professions can make very easy and effective use of AoHM.
Many professions can make viable and reasonably effective use of Vampirism.

drkn · Apr 17, 2010, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

it's supposed to be a thief.

Oo since when?
the fact that a class has several skills stealing other skills doesn't mean it's a thief-like class. we're clear enough that elementalist is not a nuker per se just because of fire spells and monk is not the uber aoe dps class because of roj and several other skills. sure, those are options, but not the main ones.

@Magma:
i dropped the series at about the thirteenth book. i have even played 'xanth' the game, though.

Quote:

But the fun is also in the playing. I want to experience every part of Xanth, and enjoy it to the utmost.

totally agreed. but when you've already experienced every part of GW and enjoyed it, you are inferior as a mesmer.
experienced != completed, for the first. second, when you're down to grinding - allegiance, eotn rep titles - you're much slower and much more limited. after you have explored the game and found out it's all pretty much the same - except the storyline, but the general mechanics are the very same in all campaigns - you realise that you're limited and your friends on other classes can do something better - faster, safer, in more ways; while still getting benefits from playing their primairy class.

JDRyder · Apr 17, 2010, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Sure hope you don't mean that you're fine with PvE skills and overall imba D:?

Tbh I hate Pve skills, have since factions (the last two missions) which is why I generally dont use them.

However my point to upier was if he finds the game too easy maybe he should stop using iWin builds and try something that's harder to win with. For example actually try winning in Pve with shut down, not using SY, SoS, only using one healer, or hell dare I say something thats actually FUN to use. If thats the problem its really that easy to fix for him. Plus since he does things H/Hway hes in total control of how easy or how hard the game is.

Turbo Ginsu · Apr 17, 2010, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Oo since when?
the fact that a class has several skills stealing other skills doesn't mean it's a thief-like class. we're clear enough that elementalist is not a nuker per se just because of fire spells and monk is not the uber aoe dps class because of roj and several other skills. sure, those are options, but not the main ones.

We can agree that Prophecies was the first installment of GW, yet the word "Rogue" wasn't invented for GW. If it were like that, then surely the word would, at least in a gaming sense be more likely to have been created for D&D, if it was that line of thought you attacked it from. However in Prophecies, the mesmer gets not only Rogue but also Elite Rogue armors. Now lets also not forget that the D&D Bard class not only used melee and spells and mind affecting chants/songs, etc, it was also a pickpocket=thief.

It doesn't take much thinking then to get to the idea that regardless of which side of the coin you're looking at, mind altering/skill stealing spells, or the Rogue armors available since the first installment, or the fact they're actors, not unlike Bards, that the Mesmer then is indeed a thief class.

Sorry if that makes you feel dirty for using one or whatever, but if it walks like a duck..

Bryant Again · Apr 17, 2010, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

However my point to upier was if he finds the game too easy maybe he should stop using iWin builds and try something that's harder to win with. For example actually try winning in Pve with shut down, not using SY, SoS, only using one healer, or hell dare I say something thats actually FUN to use. If thats the problem its really that easy to fix for him. Plus since he does things H/Hway hes in total control of how easy or how hard the game is.

His complaints of the game being so easy is largely due to the imba. A lot of people don't get much satisfaction by having to shoot themselves in the foot for "challenge". It's true that in time you will always master a game, but that shouldn't be reached so easily. Playing through Dragon Age with the pause button turned off is harder than this, and DA is *horrendously* balanced.

reaper with no name · Apr 17, 2010, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

1. Grind having an effect on the game means that you will have players that are better at this game NOT because they would be more skilled, but rather because of the effects that grind has (better skills, effects of titles, ...). The issue of this is that OTHER players are now able to exclude you for not grinding. You can choose to not grind, but that means that you might not be able to experience the game fully because you do not grind.
This can be remedied by playing with people you know. Nonetheless, it DOES exclude a number of people from the game.

2. The amount of grind actually makes people not want to play. When you choose to grind for a reward, and even by grinding heavily, that reward is still so insanely far away that it doesn't make sense to continue. For instance, most of the people that I know that quit, quit the game BEFORE reaching GWAMM. They enjoyed the game, they did most of the things that can be done - but some of the rewards were tied to having to redo everything that they already did and the rewards just didn't justify the investment.
The carrot is so far away that you can not see it.
Now, if there was less grind - these people would most likely still quit.
Why?
Because they had enough of the game.
The difference is that now they leave disillusioned. They worked their asses off, and they were nowhere near the reward that they wanted. There was no sense of accomplishment when their game experience ended.
This probably isn't the best state to leave your costumers in IF you want them coming back.

For all the things I disagree with you on, this is one area where I agree. No character should ever have a mechanical advantage over another. Doesn't matter it's +1 damage or +50. Doesn't matter if you get it by grinding for 5 hours or 5000.

The fact is, if you have two players with equal skill and the same builds, the guy who has done more grinding on his Kurzick or Luxon title (assuming the builds utilize those skills) is going to be more powerful and effective. That is wrong. It is in complete opposition to the GW design philosophy, and makes players who want to be powerful or optimal feel like they're being forced to grind. It's not "grind if you want to"; it's "grind or be less effective than you would be otherwise".

Of course, this doesn't apply to titles like Lucky or Sweet Tooth. Those are purely cosmetic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

While skills like SY, AoHM, and Vampirism are fully effective for any profession?

I don't think so.

If those PvE skills are usable as secondaries, so should PvE skills like Critical Agility. Either rework Critical Agility and stuff like it (TNtF, for example) so any profession can use it with reasonable effectiveness, or make all of those PvE profession skills work only with their primary profession.

In other words, completely killing Paragons in PvE by making the one skill they have that makes them best at their one good build (TNTF) equally usable by anyone (or removing SY as an option for them, also killing Imbagon)? No thanks. I'd prefer the current "case by case" system.

QueenofDeath · Apr 17, 2010, 07:15 AM // 07:15

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When do mesmers get soul reaping?

When they are a Necro/Mesmer like mine.

)

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Nonetheless, it DOES exclude a number of people from the game.

No it doesn't, people exclude a number of people from the game not grind or the lack of grind. Plus intelligent players can do 99% of this game with heroes and henchies as I've done all of Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall with them. I can even do much of UW and FOW with 3 heroes. So don't give us that crap that players are excluded from the game because they don't grind. It's always about players dealing with other players or just playing by themselves.

upier · Apr 17, 2010, 07:17 AM // 07:17